in which they make me talk about me...

[lagilman]

My essay about writing fantasy for Luna -- and the connection between my dark fantasy-writing self and the romance-publishing establishment, and my penchant for non-Happily-Ever-After endings -- is up at http://paranormalromanceblog.wordpress.com/

Go, give them many hits. Make me look popular. *grin*

Comments

[handlebar605.livejournal.com]

this is just my opinion, but the picture on the link makes you look rather more mature than you really are. if they could change it, it might be beneficial (unless romance writers are expected to be more experienced.

[lagilman]

Beneficial? Because only Hot Young Thags can sell books? You're veering dangerously over into sexist, here....

(would you demand that a male author have botox and/or Photoshop the lines from his face, at 40, in order to be "beneficial"? THINK about what you're posting...)

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I will argue that it is not the most flattering picture of you; I barely recognized you from it.

Nice article, though.

[lagilman]

*shrug* That's my face, for whatever it's worth (same series my LOL icon was taken from). I'd rather this discussion be about the article, personally. I'm a writer, not a model...

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I'd rather this discussion be about the article, personally.

Okay.

It looks like the only thing that's defining the Wren and Sergei books as romance is the name of the imprint, as you conceived of them as urban fantasy (which is where I would have pegged them) and you're not changing the storylines to happily ever after to fit some cookie-cutter notion of a romantic storyline, nor are you defining yourself as a romance writer. (Do you even go pitch at RWA events?)

My wonder as reader is how anybody is defining anything anymore. I'm not saying that to be snarky, it's because I can go into my library and pull out four books, each of which have a character with some form of supernatural power, are set in a slightly magicked-up version of the "real" world, have a male and female who are attracted to each other, and whom work together to solve some form of puzzle involving physical danger to themselves or others.

Four books. Same plot elements. One's listed as romance, one as mystery, one as fantasy, and one as YA. Frankly, your defining yourself as a fantasy author is as valid and accurate as Luna & Harlequin defining you as a romance author, and as if Berkeley bought your next Wren & Sergei book and suddenly calling you a mystery author... because as far as I can tell, the ONLY defining difference is the marketing brand of the publisher who signs the respective checks.

[lagilman]

it all depends on what readership your publisher's going for. Ideally, you open with the largest and expand into the smaller until you have everyone on-board and your categoery becomes "bestseller." That, I suspect, is why urban fantasy gets tagged as romance so often -- romance readers are more prone to trying somethig new than, for'ex, mystery readers, historically.

The trick is tagging every possible readership, and not limiting a book's appeal to the starting point. TPTB at Harlequin seem to have trouble recognizing, for example, that Luna books have a male readership, too. If we could harness that, and make sales-power from it... hello USA Today bestseller list! :-)

[neadods.livejournal.com]

romance readers are more prone to trying somethig new than, for'ex, mystery readers, historically.

I've heard that said at a mystery con too, I think by chickwriter - that mystery fans were hard to woo to another genre, while SF fans would try anything once.

What's frustrating as reader is that "every possible readership" seems some days to be turning into "every possible genre is cranking out the same basic setup." I would LOVE to read a book that didn't have a love interest in it, just for the rare change!

I get the impression from a variety of places that TPTB @ Harlequin have been making money doing one specific thing for so long that they no longer recognize the existence of alternatives.

[lagilman]

I get the impression from a variety of places that TPTB @ Harlequin have been making money doing one specific thing for so long that they no longer recognize the existence of alternatives

well, they started Luna, despite having avoided F/SF their entire history, and took me on despite not having much of a traditional romance content a'tall, so they can't be too blinded by The One True Way... (and there were books in the list that used polyamory, incest, and a host of other traditional no-nos....)

It will be nice, though, I admit, to work on Vinespell. Lots of relationships, and none of them romantic.

[handlebar605.livejournal.com]

ok, poor choice of words I'm sorry about that. with your head tilted to the side and your hand on your head as if to hold it up, it appears as if you are infirm and feeble.

I wasn't really thinking about wrinkles. Anne McCaffrey's pictures are of a very old woman with wattles and white hair. I still love her work and I fear the day she will no longer be able to write more stories of Pern (although she's breaking her son in on the world, I do see that most of the stories are already written/told). The biggest difference seems to be in the posture of the subject.

my last comment on the topic

[lagilman]

I am disappointed that you chose to focus on what the author looks like, rather than the content of the writing. And again I wonder if the author were a male of 40, would you have made a similar comment -- or commented at all on the photo?

Re: my last comment on the topic

[handlebar605.livejournal.com]

I'm very sorry to have made the comment, I had not intended it to be offensive.

My only excuse is that I'm a man & don't always engage brain before mouth. Please accept my apologies for my stupidity.

Re: my last comment on the topic

[lagilman]

But do you understand why I was taken aback at it? Because if you wouldn't have made the same comment about a male author, then it wasn't offensive to me, specifically: it was offensive to every woman trying to compete on the basis of her talent, not her appearance.

In other words, it was sexist and -- were I allow it -- demeaning. Being male is no excuse for that -- don't make me buy you a one-way ticket to Wiscon!

Re: my last comment on the topic

[handlebar605.livejournal.com]

Wiscon?

Yes.

women consider comments that involve appearance on a personal level. This is due to the fact that in days of old (try last week P Brain!) women were not considered as people, but as decoration (congratulations on finally getting to vote).

I wasn't thinking of what you looked like, but more of the positioning of the pose and what that body language said.

Because I was thinking one thing (and stupidly used the wrong words to try to express myself, but I ain't no writter) you were hearing/thinking something else Part of which is because of different genders and part of which is different personality types.

(frozen) Re: my last comment on the topic

[lagilman]

*blink* It's my fault for being offended when you didn't think you were being offensive? Blame the victim, much?

Here's some serious advice, handlebar605. If you say/write/post something, you make an impact. Think hard about what you want that impact to be, or accept that your careless/thoughtless words may really, really be hurtful to someone.

That's not "being a writer." That's "being a mensch."

[fakefrenchie.livejournal.com]

Been there, done that! I totally agree with your conception, though it doesn't make for a "comfortable" read.

BTW, I totally disagree about the photo. It's great.

[ex-fashioni.livejournal.com]

After I've had coffee, I'll try to post a cogent, even semi-intelligent sort of answer over there, but over here, I wanted to say something about how interesting I find this comment:

the connection between my dark fantasy-writing self and the romance-publishing establishment, and my penchant for non-Happily-Ever-After endings

I've been accused of not writing romance, even though I do like at least the promise of the HEA. Why? Because what I make my characters go through in the process of trying to get to that moment—the moment where the potential for a happy future lies—I put my characters in situations that veer uncomfortably close to "too real." To me, that seems to be almost as big a litmus test as the HEA.

Interesting stuff to ponder.

[lagilman]

Romance is, by its nature, a very restrictive genre -- I thik that's why it gets such a bad rap from the outside. It's almost the direct opposite of fantasy, which is so broadly-encompassing, and is probably why the two blend so well together....

(quick hit of Gilman's Theory of Genres: Romance and Mystery are structures, Fantasy, SF, and Horror are enviroments. Blending them is basic landscaping and, done well, pleasing to the eye. Blending two structures, or two landscapes, is much trickier, and with greater chance of Fail)

[peggin.livejournal.com]

Great post. I generally prefer to see either an open ending or a bittersweet ending in a romance novel, because the "happily ever after" ending always seems so fake to me. I like romance novels, but most of the time when I read one I find myself enjoying 99% of the book and then gagging on the syrupy sweet ending. It's just too much. In real life, there are going to be problems and fights and, even if the two people stay in love and together throughout their lives, eventually one of them is going to die. There is no "happily ever after." There is, however, "happier together than not together" and a bittersweet ending can show that while still acknowledging that life isn't perfect.

[0eris0.livejournal.com]

Speaking of your books, I found Free Fall being sold at the Yale Bookstore. :-)

Huh --

[alfreda89.livejournal.com]

Age was not what I thought of. I'll call it your supermodel shot. Nothing wrong with it -- unless going for the diagonal bothers some would-be readers.

Now, the article --

[alfreda89.livejournal.com]

Having tossed in my two cents on the pic, I should now say that I liked the article; that no regular of their line could be led into Real Romance accidentally. These were all valid points about the idea of RR and the scripting of a fantasy world that must work on all levels.

Like, if a door opens and there's a bricked-up wall, it's not a mistake -- it's a feature. Hang around and watch Wren pull herself out!