living in denial
Dec. 18th, 2005 08:46 amSo, the results of my stance on the "fanfiction: pro or con" panel at Lunacon, and the resulting article in the NJ Star Ledger are beginning to bear fuit. Bitter fruit, at that -- have started getting hate mail.
People, get a clue. When I say that it's illegal, that's because it IS. Really. The courts have so-ruled, and it's been upheld. Argue against copyright. Push the fight to get rid of it, if you really think that's what's Right. For now, it exists. And if the copyright holder does not fight known infringment, they lose the right to claim copyright, which means that can't earn money off thier works. This is called "damaging your own livlihood."
Telling me I shouldn't be looking to make money off my work, because it's depriving you of your 'right' to create fanfic? Let's see you turn that around and hit your own paycheck, child. See how stringent you are about 'freedom' then.
Hell, I love fanfic. I wrote fanfic. I think writing fanfic is a great fannish thing. But keep it lo-key. Allow the official copyright holders to not see it. Don't trumpet yourself where they have no choice but to take note, especially the one-owner material (as opposed to media work, where there's more room to argue against the 'reasonable confusion in the market."). But remember that it's against established law, so when you're told to stop, you have to stop or face consequences. Why are you bitching at me for pointing that out?
Oh. And telling (threatening) me that you're not going to buy any of my books from now on? Hey, that's your consumer's privilege. I'm not about to cower in my shoes and stop speaking truth in public because of it.
But stop to think about what could happen, in a world where writers, and musicians, and actors don't get royalties from their work, and their income drops even closer to nil. You think you're still going to be getting these stories and shows you form fandoms around? Good luck.
People, get a clue. When I say that it's illegal, that's because it IS. Really. The courts have so-ruled, and it's been upheld. Argue against copyright. Push the fight to get rid of it, if you really think that's what's Right. For now, it exists. And if the copyright holder does not fight known infringment, they lose the right to claim copyright, which means that can't earn money off thier works. This is called "damaging your own livlihood."
Telling me I shouldn't be looking to make money off my work, because it's depriving you of your 'right' to create fanfic? Let's see you turn that around and hit your own paycheck, child. See how stringent you are about 'freedom' then.
Hell, I love fanfic. I wrote fanfic. I think writing fanfic is a great fannish thing. But keep it lo-key. Allow the official copyright holders to not see it. Don't trumpet yourself where they have no choice but to take note, especially the one-owner material (as opposed to media work, where there's more room to argue against the 'reasonable confusion in the market."). But remember that it's against established law, so when you're told to stop, you have to stop or face consequences. Why are you bitching at me for pointing that out?
Oh. And telling (threatening) me that you're not going to buy any of my books from now on? Hey, that's your consumer's privilege. I'm not about to cower in my shoes and stop speaking truth in public because of it.
But stop to think about what could happen, in a world where writers, and musicians, and actors don't get royalties from their work, and their income drops even closer to nil. You think you're still going to be getting these stories and shows you form fandoms around? Good luck.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 02:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 02:12 pm (UTC)FanGirl: I love your Buffy books, I've read all of them.
CG: Thanks, I appreciate that.
FG: I write too.
CG: Do you? Oh, that's great, really.
FG: Yeah, and a lot of my fans have told me that I write a lot like you-- and that my fanfic's even better than yours
CG: (muscle twitching ever so slightly) How nice for you. Except-- I don't write fanfic. I write licensed property novels under a contract from Fox while you're infringing on copyright law.
That's stayed with me for nearly five years. And I wrote fanfic too-- rehoned the writing chops on it before moving back into original material, but I would have never presumed to think it was my inalienable right or something.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 02:22 pm (UTC)*facepalm* They didn't. No, no, I know they did, but what self-righteous little brats of whatever age!
If it's illegal, it's illegal. And just because they WANT doesn't mean they get to HAVE at the expense of someone else's livelihood, as you say.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 04:42 pm (UTC)I say this as a heavy heart because I am one of those fandom-is-a-way-of-life fans, but there is a loud and angry segment of panfandom that has a frightening sense of entitlement - and the internet gives them a louder, and more immediate voice. The ones who defend Real Person Slash and attack anyone who decries it, the ones who are protesting that JK Rowling didn't have the love affair they wanted in her latest book, etc.
There are some people in this world - and not just in fandom - who are simply not going to accept that what they can't have whatever they demand.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 02:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 02:38 pm (UTC)Anyway, "doom?" What "doom?"
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 02:34 pm (UTC)But...but...but...OW! That hurt, it was so stupid.
That makes no sense at all. WTF are they putting in the water these days? Valium?
no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 02:46 pm (UTC)Sorry for the rambling comment. I thought I was more awake than I am. Getting more coffee now.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 03:19 pm (UTC)"Ooooh, Joss / Gene / Amy, I love your characters so much I'm going to imagine my own stories about them and share them with my friends!"
Well, okay, I guess, as long as one realizes the boundaries of this. (as noted, the genie's pretty much out of the bottle, and the only big difference today is it's on-line instead of mimeograph)
But it's still someone else's property being played with, and if one isn't doing it within the legal boundaries, one needs to realize it's no different than, say, printing and distributing unlicensed Bart Simpson or Garfield t-shirts.
That is to say, it's theft, plain and simple, regardless of the trappings of admiration it's dressed up in.
:: le sigh grande ::
Any weirdness with folks sending you Wren stories or the like?
no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 03:25 pm (UTC)I've asked them not to. Don't see, don't have to respond. Likewise the person who was using the Retrievers universe as the basis for a gaming module. Don't tell me/my agent/my publisher, don't publish it yourself, go forth and have fun, my children.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 03:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 03:27 pm (UTC)It was an okay article, although clearly, um, edited for space and Agenda.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 03:21 pm (UTC)I mean, I enjoy reading some fanfic (although most of it is complete dreck) and I even dabble a little in writing fanfic, but I know it's not my "right" to read and write the stuff.
But stop to think about what could happen, in a world where writers, and musicians, and actors don't get royalties from their work, and their income drops even closer to nil. You think you're still going to be getting these stories and shows you form fandoms around? Good luck.
I've had this kind of conversation with my brother, when he wants to know how, as a Libertarian, I can be in favor of patents and copyrights and so forth, since their very existence depends on the government. I'm not sure I can completely reconcile it with being a Libertarian, but to me, NOT having laws protecting intellectual property is just stupid..
Like when people protest the cost of a new "miracle drug" and claim that the pill only costs 5 cents to make, so why are they paying $20 a pill. Well, the second pill might have only cost 5 cents, but the first one cost $50 million. If the drug companies don't have the power to recoup those costs, if another drug company can come along, steal the formula, and start selling those pills for 5 cents, there's never going to be another first pill.
The only real difference with creative works is that creative people will probably still create, but if they can't make money off their creations they're not going to put nearly as much of an effort into finding an audience for their work. Also, since they can't earn a living off their work anymore, they're going to have to find another source of income. This means they'll have a lot less time to do their creative work. So the work will still be there, but there will be a lot less of it and nobody will be able to find it.
I'm not sure I had much of a point with this, beyond my first sentence: People are such idiots.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 03:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 03:31 pm (UTC)I do agree that if the sole copyright owner of a work asks that people not write fanfic based on his/her work, then fanfic writers should respect that. Or at least keep it very, very, very, very, very quiet, as in "I write it and my two friends read it and we're done now."
no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 03:36 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 04:12 pm (UTC)I know the pain of speaking out against copyright infringement. I did a panel on fanfic and copyright at Norwescon a couple of years ago (me, a couple of authors, and a lawyer) and was the target of a lot of hostility as a result. The panel ended on time, after an exchange that went something like this:
Fanboy: You can't stop people from writing fanfic. Information wants to be free; the Internet gives us the right.
Me: The Internet doesn't give you the right to steal, which is what you're doing. And if information wants to be free, please put it in a box and let's see it wriggle is way out with no help from you. The law is the law, dude. If you steal something that someone else created and owns, it's against the law.
Fanboy: But if I buy it, it's mine.
Me: If you buy a copy of the original, the copy is yours, not the original, which is what you're doing when you buy a book or a DVD.
Fanboy: Uh...
no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 04:48 pm (UTC)May I steal this line please?
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 04:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 04:32 pm (UTC)That said, I DO believe that, for most people, writing fanfic is something they move on from. Either the fandom begins to bore or annoy them, and they don't find something else to refill the well, or they discover (as I did) theat they just don't have the time/energy to give to it.
It's not a dissing, just an observation, and one I stand behind (especially when confronted by what appear to be legions of teenage fic-writers posting everywhere).
That said, it has nothing to do with my comments about the legality thereof, which is what I was being attacked for.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 05:12 pm (UTC)There was art long before there were royalty agreements. Musicians and actors would get paid per performance; writers would get paid upon manuscript delivery. This is a not unreasonable way to do things and it's the way things were done for a long long time. To use
Many artists are perfectly willing to create "open source art". Many are willing to publish for a pittance or for free. I entirely agree that those who release their work under more stringent strictures should be respected; I don't agree that if there were no such thing as copyright or royalties, art would disappear. I mention this not to twit you but because I think that last paragraph detracts from an otherwise strong and sensible position.
warning: moderate crankiness ahead
Date: 2005-12-18 05:23 pm (UTC)Saying "what was" doesn't mean it's the way things work now.
As to your other point -- show me one artist who creates 'open source art' as the whole of their means of employment -- no trust funds, no grants, no outside income to pay their bills.
Me, I'd loooove to have a grant, or a patron, or a publisher who paid living wage advances complete with health insurance and benefits... but instead, the system is set up so that we earn our money on the backside, via royalties, IF the material sells well enough.
Don't like the results? Blame the system, don't penalize the people who have to work within it.
Better yet, UNDERSTAND the system as it works, before (generic you, not a specific) try to claim it's wrong, or untrue, or not fair.
/end crankiness
Re: warning: moderate crankiness ahead
From:Re: warning: moderate crankiness ahead
From:Re: warning: moderate crankiness ahead
From:Mostly agree, but...
Date: 2005-12-18 06:01 pm (UTC)This is absolutely not true. TRADEMARKS need to be defended, or they are lost. Copyright is never lost due to failure to fight infringement.
But yor point stands... copyright = the ability of creative people to get paid for their work, and overall is a good thing, even if it means you can't post your buffy/sabrina slash fic to the internet. You can still WRITE it... but you can't share it publically... Public... publish... they share a root for a reason.
Re: Mostly agree, but...
Date: 2005-12-18 08:35 pm (UTC)Yeah, I was just going to say that. Not that this contradicts Laura in any way...fanfic is something that's usually tolerated as long as it's not sold, but it's not like anybody's under any onus to tolerate it, moral or otherwise. (Disney isn't really evil when they go after a day care center that adverises itself with unauthorized use of Disney characters, either.)
Re: Mostly agree, but...
From:no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 07:45 pm (UTC)Now it seems like fandom as a whole is pushier, more ill-mannered and prone to egregious displays of pure wank. I don't know why that is, but it makes me sad. The days of IDIC are long gone, and fandom is an uglier place because of it. It's gotten to the point where I don't want to have anything to do with fandom because the fans have become so petty and mean-spirited. And that also makes me sad.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 08:00 pm (UTC)I think you may be confusing copyright with trademark infringement. I could be wrong about this, of course, but I don't think a copyright owner is required to protect copyright in the same way that a trademark owner is required to protect a trademark.
If that were the case, the copyrights to Trek, SW, and a lot of other works would have become public domain a long time ago, and they haven't; because the owners are most certainly aware that those rights were infringed. They sent C&Ds in the most egregious cases, true, but not in every case they knew about.
The infringement I think we ought to be a lot more worried about is what Google is attempting to do. They openly assert that their mission is to make all of the world's information freely available to everyone, and that information includes everything a writer writes. Sure, they claim that people will only be able to read "snippets" (which somehow become up to 20% of a book, which somehow becomes 100% of a book...), and librarians say that it's just too, too hard to locate copyright owners in order to get permission to make electronic copies of works.... Those are the real threats to writers' livelihoods, in my opinion. Writers have a vested interest in restricting access to their works, and unless we find a way of getting paid every time someone accesses it online, or decide to sell all rights for a one-time fee, we are going to find ourselves royally screwed within ten years.
Copyright
Date: 2005-12-20 04:59 pm (UTC)Whether an author could lose their copyright or not really is immaterial to the infringers. The diehard "Information wants to be free" people who want to do fanfic probably aren't too worried about the ability of authors to retain copyright. After all, what could happen -- there are no more authorized TV episodes or movies? Every show or film series comes to an end, but the fanfic would continue.
Personally and professionally, I agree fully about the legal status of fanfic. It is illegal and should not be freely available to all and sundry on the Internet. (I used to write Trek fanfic (no slash), but gave it up long ago when I realized it was not going to launch my writing career, and my writing time could be better spent.)
Sean
Re: Copyright (not so fast, my friend...)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 08:07 pm (UTC)And to flaunt it under the owner's nose is plain rudeness, and if the copyright owner decides to skin the fan alive, well... the law is on the owner's side. Period. And the consequences are damned expensive.
Seems to me that fannish courtesy requires keeping it under the radar.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-19 07:18 am (UTC)The most recent court ruling related to fanfic as far as I know was the Wind Done Gone case, which was decided in favor of the defendants. (In case you're not familiar -- the book is a rewrite of Gone With The Wind, which is still under copyright, from the point of view of a black slave; the Mitchell estate sued to try and prevent publication and lost.)
Most copyright-infringement cases are about unauthorized commercial duplication and distribution of the author's work. Which few people would argue with, even the most extreme of open-source fanatics. But there's a wide gulf between someone copying your book and selling it for their own profit without paying you a cent, and someone writing fanfic and posting it on the internet at their own expense.
If you want to know more about the issue, this is the best legal article I've read on the subject:
Legal Fictions: Copyright, Fan Fiction, and a New Common Law
http://www.schrag.info/tushnet/law/fanficarticle.html
It's a long article, but well-written and easy to follow, IMO.
I will add that in my understanding (though I am not a lawyer and so this should not be taken as gospel or anything), that as already mentioned, you don't need to defend copyright, just trademark. You won't be making yourself vulnerable just by permitting fanfic; if you actively read it, then you might have issues if some loony fan accused you of ripping off a piece she sent you, but that's not the same thing.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 09:00 pm (UTC)I wonder if part of the problem is the divide between tv/movie fanfic and novel fanfic. While I happily wrote the former, it never occurred to me that I or anyone would write the latter. I nearly passed out when I learned of the Potter fic. (I know ... I'm very sad *g*). Somehow, the tv/movie sources never seemed to belong to one person, so many people had their fingers in the story, it just seemed ... open. Novels are entirely different. Not legally, I appreciate, but certainly artistically. At least, it feels that way to me. So perhaps other people feel that, and can't understand the way a lot of authors feel ... because some authors won't have a bar of fanfic and it has nothing to do with copyright issue, but 'ownership' of those characters, those worlds. Do novelists feel differently about the characters/worlds they create because they do not share in their creation the way worlds and characters are shared in the creation of a movie/tv show?
The internet has created an entirely new breed of fan, who can hide behind anonymous and cybernames and be truly, truly horrible and aggressive and slanderous and vile, and bear no consequences for that action. And society in general is now firmly ensconced on a path where civility is scorned, not celebrated, where individuals are never never never told that their private rights do not trump the rights and welfare of another, or the community at large, and that they are entitled to have what they want, when they want it, and screw everybody else. And these folk, who are so jealous of their 'rights', will viciously attack anyone who exercises *their* right to disagree or, as you've done, point out perfectly calmly that there are legal ramifications to their actions.
I think the only response is to do what you've done -- continue to tell the truth. You've set a great example. It pisses me off beyond the telling that you've been vilified, threatened and attacked because of it. This of course is the modus operandi du jour ... attack anyone who has the temerity to disagree with you. I hope the fallout isn't too horrible, and that the truth goes on being spoken.
The only argument against fanfic that gets me seeing scarlet is the assertion that it's not creative.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-19 03:58 am (UTC)The lines blur even further in the case of role-playing universes (the Forgotten Realms, etc.) and literary shared worlds (notably Eric Flint's 1632 universe), wherein readers/consumers are to some degree encouraged to engage in storytelling and in adding to the existing body of material. I believe that Flint has even described the anthologies (print and electronic) arising from the 1632 material as "authorized fanfic" or some such.
The copyright issues regarding fanfic are pretty clear; if a copyright holder doesn't want fans in the sandbox, then he, she, or it has the right to kick them out. Most of the qualitative issues, however, strike me as suspect; there are collective creations on both sides of the fanfic/profic fence, and there's excellent and execrable work on both sides as well.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 09:43 pm (UTC)I would second and third, however, the comments about the conflation of copyright/trademark infringement. I have no problem with an author publicly declaring that they will not allow fan fiction of their work - that should be respected immediately and without question. But there are also many authors who publicly endorse such endeavors, and I've yet to see them lose a thing.
In conclusion: people are stupid.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-19 04:06 am (UTC)Mmm; the Marion Zimmer Bradley case comes to mind. It seems fairly well-established that that particular dispute deep-sixed the novel MZB was working on over which the disagreement arose, and it stopped the Darkover shared-world anthologies dead in their tracks afterward. And that was pre-Internet....there are authors who were formerly fanfic-friendly who've modified their positions in the wake of the realities of Web distribution (Mercedes Lackey, for one).
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2005-12-18 10:04 pm (UTC)And the Internet is a public place. That's the part fanfic writers don't seem to understand.
I also think there's a small group of folks who assume good fiction will just happen somehow, and honestly couldn't care less if writers make a living.
no subject
Date: 2005-12-19 01:02 am (UTC)I do not believe this is true. As far as I know, there has never been a single case in which an amateur fanfic author has been found liable for copyright infringement in the U.S. courts. In large part, this is because such disputes simply don't get taken all the way through to verdicts, but the fact remains: we do not know if some form of fair use will be read by the courts to cover fanfic, because the contours of the doctrine are far from clear and we do not have precedent to guide us by. I've read a journal article by a respectable legal academic that makes a good case for its being fair use.
What other people have said above about your confusion of trademark and copyright is also correct--you do not need to "defend" your copyright to keep it.
This does not mean that I don't respect your right to make a living off your work, but if you're going to raise legal arguments, it's important to get them right. (Attention to the legal doctrines may also lead you to realize that the system as currently configured benefits you far less than it benefits vast media conglomerates, but that's less important.)
no subject
Date: 2005-12-19 04:21 am (UTC)From a strict procedural standpoint -- well, maybe. I'm thinking of the Yarbro/Holmesian Federation case. That one got far enough that the settlement agreement didn't merely involve monetary payment, but an agreement to publish retractions in major trade publications. And if that agreement was entered into court records (very likely), that could very well be regarded as a binding acknowledgment that the defendants' actions constituted copyright infringement -- not just by the defendants, but by the court where the records were filed. [That's of limited value for appellate purposes, granted, but it's worth considering.]
I am not a lawyer, but from what I've seen of the legal/academic discussions, my sense is that while some fanfic of certain types might fall into a "fair use" category, I think it's highly unlikely that fanfic as a whole can legally do so.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:on copyright and trademark
Date: 2005-12-19 03:46 am (UTC)And talk about poisoning the well -- that case managed to turn a lot of writers off the entire concept of 'play nice with the fans' because the fans clearly did nt give a damn about the authors...
(yes, I'm back. But dog tired, so falling over now)
Re: on copyright and trademark
Date: 2005-12-19 04:32 am (UTC)Re: on copyright and trademark
From:no subject
Date: 2005-12-19 12:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-12-19 05:01 pm (UTC)Your civility is impressive
Date: 2005-12-20 06:49 pm (UTC)I equate the mentality of those who advocate unrestricted rights to create derivate works without compensating the author with the mentality of those engaging in piracy.
I fear, however, that we will have to go back to a patronage system, and that will further erode the quality of work produced based on what our corporate sponsors are willing to be associated with. Artists will be packed into cubicles, churning out their daily word/image requirement. We will become technicians if we want to make a living doing what we love to do. (And WTF to whomever said they're happy with whatever time they can squeeze out of their schedule for writing--like their writing habits justify someone infringing my copyright?)
Okay, before I go off on a very aggressive, foul-mouthed rant, I will say YAY YOU for sticking up for the rights of originators and I hope the supporting letters are of sufficient volume/quality to make up for the hate mail.
Ann