more frustration

[lagilman]

As many of you know, I also do some freelance editorial work. Some of it's directly for publishers. Some of it's directly for authors who are under contract but don't feel they're getting the proper ass-kicking they need in-house. Some of it's directly for unpublished writers who feel they need another, more experienced eye to help them get in the door.

The first kind of project is, well, work. I have no emotional investment in the project, as a rule, and no financial interest beyond the paycheck. They get my full professional attention, and then they go back in-house. Refreshing, really, and I quite enjoy it.

The second kind is, honestly, my favorite -- emotional involvement, because the writer came to me and said "I need your specific skills, I respect you, I know you can make me better." I give them everything I've got, same as I did when I was acquiring and editing. And, yes, I get paid.

The third kind... can be wonderful. I have some clients who were a joy to work with, who -- even if in the end they didn't reach their goal of nabbing a contract, took something more than a polished manuscript away with them: they learned and knew they had learned, and were willing to build on that, to go forward. And some clients have gotten agency representation, or nibbles on the book, and that's a real joy, too.

Some of them have been... in a word, nightmares. I've been treated like a servant, I've been stiffed fees, and I've been told, flat-out, that it was MY fault the book didn't get an immediate offer from the next editor they sent it to. And every time I get one of those clients I say -- that's it, no more. Life's too short and why am I putting myself through this, anyway?

But then I get an e-mail query, and I think "maybe this one will be one of the good ones..."


So when, after spending time reading over a sample of work, and making notes to discuss with a potential client (about 45 minutes of prep work, unpaid) I then spend half an hour on the phone with that potential client, only to get a very clear message that said P.C. is merely pumping me for everything s/he can get, and has no intention of hiring me, or paying me for the work already done...

I'm annoyed. Bigtime. Not every client I talk to hires me, no. And some I send on their way, because I wouldn't be able to help them. But the time was still spent, the effort made, at the expense of other things I might have been doing.

Sure enough, time goes by after "thanks, I'll get back to you" and there's nothing. Not a thank-you for taking the time, but no-thanks e-mail, even.



So here's a hint, to everyone who writes, who wants to write, who is beloved by or related to anyone who writes: courtesy won't win you any book deals. But it clears a lot of debris out of the way as you slog forward. Use people if you must, but compensate them for that use, even if it's just to say 'thank you, I appreciated your time and effort.' Books have acknowledgement pages for exactly that purpose.

Cookies and/or drinks at the next conference you're both at are also acceptable and long-established IOU payments.

Comments

Re: Do you do non-fiction?

[lagilman]

I do, indeed. Have them contact me at dymk at lycos dot com, and we can discuss the project.

[arcaedia.livejournal.com]

So when, after spending time reading over a sample of work, and making notes to discuss with a potential client (about 45 minutes of prep work, unpaid) I then spend half an hour on the phone with that potential client, only to get a very clear message that said P.C. is merely pumping me for everything s/he can get, and has no intention of hiring me, or paying me for the work already done...

Been there. Done something very similar. It sure does make one feel less inclined to be kind. In my case, it was a meeting at a conference with someone who simply would not leave me alone until I agreed to read something. I've since learned to just turn and walk away after I've politely declined more than once. But, in this case, I did read it, and then I sent it back with a couple of comments intended to be helpful and that writer then called me and I tried to be professional. I suggested other agents they could query. I answered questions about the submissions process. When they got rejected by one of those agents, they called me for a pep talk. It was just getting really out of hand. Sometimes people are just so greedy and so selfish and so self-absorbed. I begin to believe they actually haven't the foggiest idea that they are taking advantage. Sadly for other writers who could benefit, it persuades helpful people to be less so.

[dancinghorse.livejournal.com]

Sympathies! I learned from a colleague when I first started to charge two hours up front before I read a word of the work. No work in advance except the brief email correspondence that determines whether I want to take the project on.

That does stop the kind of user you've just dealt with, though the kind that pays the tab, promises more work by X date, then is never heard from again is its own lesser annoyance. That's taught me never to block time for a project unless it's paid for.

I do make exceptions for professionals whom I know well (I know where they live, mwahahaha), but "cold calls" get treated all alike. So far it's worked well and I've had some really pleasant gigs.

Another thing I do on the website, also through advice from others before me, is to state up front that I cannot get them an editor, agent, or publisher, and work with me is no guarantee of same. I can help make the work the best it can be, but what happens to it after our contract is over is entirely up to the client. I'm hoping that deters the ones who are looking for that particular thing, or at least gives me backup if I get any flak. (So far, no flak at all. I've had great clients.)

[lagilman]

Oh, I get paid half of the estimate, up front, before I do anything beyond a consult. That, I learned straight-off. The problem appeared after a project was done and paid for, when the follow-ups stretched into "okay, we're into another agreement now" and the client refused to pay.

And then had the gall to e-mail me and ask for advice on something. Chutzpah, definition of.

Another thing I do on the website, also through advice from others before me, is to state up front that I cannot get them an editor, agent, or publisher, and work with me is no guarantee of same


Same on my web site, likewise. This does not stop some shmucks from being, well, shmucks.

[dancinghorse.livejournal.com]

The problem appeared after a project was done and paid for, when the follow-ups stretched into "okay, we're into another agreement now" and the client refused to pay.

Ah so. I guess it's an object lesson for us all in not doing followup unless paid in advance.

Schmucks are everywhere. Witness the ongoing refrain among agents and editors about would-be clients who Will Not follow submission guidelines. It's a lot more damaging to be a schmuck these days than it used to be--word gets around a Lot faster and a lot more publicly, with blogs and all.

[wyldflamingo.livejournal.com]

Dancinghorse was without question a guidewire for me, trying to find my way through my manuscript. Thank you again!

[dancinghorse.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. :)

[jennifer-dunne.livejournal.com]

That's just rude.

Karma will bite them on the butt sometime soon for this. And you'll get a Karma cookie. Hopefully chocolate chip. :-)

[otherdeb.livejournal.com]

Hi. I'm certainly not, as a short story writer, gonna write anything remotely like the Great American Novel, but I can tell you from experience that a good editor is worth twice his/her weight in gold. I have learned more about the craft of writing fro them than I can say. And the best part: Often when doing business or other writing, I find their advice still valuable and applicable in so many more places than it was originally intended for.

I have long been annoyed at writers who do not appreciate what their editor can do for them.

[wyldflamingo.livejournal.com]

I'm horrified--horrified!--that someone would do this. Getting a quote over the phone, sure. Maybe plumbing for a little info...but certainly not out and out taking you for a ride like this! Who decides your time is less valuable than theirs? Or you're putting food on your table is less important?
Burning bridges...

[wwillow.livejournal.com]

That happens with translators a lot, too. People asking if I could just translate them this little paragraph, hinting that they might come back with paid work at some point in the future, never to be heard of again. I've done it a couple of times even though I suspected that the paid work bit was a lie. It's horrible how little people actually thanked me for my time, though.

And, totally off-topic: I love your icon. Mind if I friend you?

[lagilman]

I hate to say 'kids these days' because it's actually not the kids who are the problem, but yeah, what ever happened to 'thank you for helping me out?' Then again, I actually hand-write thank you letters, so I'm clearly fuddy-duddy.

And, totally off-topic: I love your icon. Mind if I friend you?

You never need ask about listing me -- but be aware (for everyone, in general) that I keep my f-list as trim as I can, for purely time-management reasons, so I tend not to add anyone until/unless I find myself reading them regularly...

[neutronjockey.livejournal.com]

For the record: I was a good little monkey (this time) and not the subject of this post.
Also for the record: Best.Edinatrix.Evar.

Off the record: I believe I will need a new addie to send this wine that is collecting dust...and I may start cleaning out one of my closets and start tossing stuff from overseas in the box along with the wine. *snicker*

What is the official name of those cylindrical wine case thingies?

-=Jeff=-

[amberdine.livejournal.com]

(followed a link to here from arcaedia)

Wow, you do freelance! Cool!

That's terrible about the rude clients. I know there are jerks in every field, but it seems to me that politeness -- at least an attempt at it -- ought to be a skill any promising writer already has. If you can't be polite and considerate, how are you ever going to manage engaging and entertaining? Sure, anyone can be clueless, but you gotta at least try.

[mt-yvr.livejournal.com]

(blink)

How odd. See... if I contacted you for help, I'd do it professionally. As in : pay, time, end product. But would I assume that it delivers more than an edited manuscript? No.

Would I get peeved at you if it didn't sell? No.

I might legitimately say : well the editing style you have doesn't help hone this manuscript in ( X )'s style of publishing. But then if I knew your style was that specific, I'd have gone elsewhere. Or asked you to help with a specific market in mind. But only in that sense that "you have this way of thinking things and will course correct me in the general direction that is ( X )'s general preferred interest".

I think from time to time I've asked for advice from people, but for the most part I make it clear if I ask more than one question I'm quite comfortable making arrangements beyond casual. And reading? I've never asked anyone to do that professionally.

Huh. Now you have me thinking about it for The Neverending Novel, should it ever, well, end. Not necessarily you (no worries, don't need to back away from the keyboard, honest) but it actually strikes me as a brilliant idea. Hmm. Things to ponder.

[deannahoak.livejournal.com]

I've done a bit of the third kind and have had good luck, but I've worried about going farther with it for the very reasons you state. At least with the publishers, I know I'm going to get paid.

And totally off topic, what was that single malt you let me have a sip of at WFC? It was so heavenly I want to buy myself a bottle. :-)

[lagilman]

And totally off topic, what was that single malt you let me have a sip of at WFC? It was so heavenly I want to buy myself a bottle. :-)


Oh lord. Was it what they were serving upstairs? Then it would have been a Glenlivit, I think. Don't remember the age. If it was in the bar downstairs, during the impromptu p/u/s/h/i/n/g/ tasting, then it could have been any of five. If I specified that it was my 'usual,' then it was a Macallan 12-year.

Recently I've been drinking the Dalmore Cigar Malt. Nice stuff.

[deannahoak.livejournal.com]

No, this was that $40-a-glass stuff from the bar downstairs....

[lagilman]

oh-hah, yeah, that -- it wasn't WFC, tho, it was WorldCon, if you're thinking of the one I'm thinking of.

and I'm ashamed to say I don't remember, except that it went into the bottle already older than I was...

[deannahoak.livejournal.com]

No, it wasn't WorldCon. It was WFC, and agamisu bought you the shot (which I inquired after once I tasted it, though found it out of my price range), and they gave him a full glass of whatever he was drinking as a kind of tip--he brought the almost-overflowing glass he had to the LJ party with him, remember?

It was good stuff....

[lagilman]

Ahhh. Yeah. I think that was either the much-beloved Macallan oh-my-god-it'sold, or one of equal age I'd never had before. I'll have to check with Himself to confirm.

Was it toffee-ish, or tea-smoky?

[deannahoak.livejournal.com]

Honestly? It was the first single-malt I'd ever tried (this Aberlour is the second), and I don't know how to describe it. It was just...amazing. :-)

[lagilman]

Clearly, it's time to do another malt-crawl, and find out if you're a Speysider like myself (I suspect you are), or a Highlander, a Lowlander or an Islay-er...

[deannahoak.livejournal.com]

Heh. Yeah, it would be fun to figure out, so I can invest my money more wisely. ;-)

[deannahoak.livejournal.com]

I bought myself a bottle of Aberlour 15 the other day, thinking it might be similar to what you'd had that day. But it's a tad too...(I'm terribly new to the single-malt thing and probably use all the wrong vocabulary, so forgive) "woody" for my taste and lacked the...clarity, I suppose, of whatever that was you had.

So I just wondered. :-)