in which I find I'm still annoyed...

[lagilman]

Yesterday, someone made a comment about Kickstarters in a chat room, and irritated two other members (one of them me, who responded with... well, politely but pointedly about the difference between types of kickstarters, and the problems in that sort of comment (that strongly implied a specific other person could have done a better job).

The person who made the first comment dropped out of the room without a word, then came back and told us they felt "jumped on." It was explained that their original comment had been taken, independently by both of us, as casting aspersions on our abilities.

In response, we were first told we were wrong about what had been said*, then accused of "hating on" the person they'd mentioned**, and then finally given a very grudging and poorly worded apology.*** Then they dropped out of the room, again without a word.

Look, here's a life lesson, if you haven't gotten it already: If, after you say something, you realize/are told you insulted people, "I'm sorry I hurt you" is the only response that works. Hedging an apology (and/or having to be shamed into it) just makes you sound like a spoiled brat being forced to behave civilly.


* when people are hurt by what we say, it doesn't matter what you THOUGHT we said. Impact matters.
**(no, actually, I'm fond of that person, considering we've only 'met' virtually)
*** I pretty much had to say "look, apologize for it, and we move on" before the idea that an apology was expected seemed to sink in.

Comments

[irishkate.livejournal.com]

If impact only matters then that person felt jumped on by two others..Were they also apologised to for that?

I'm curious about impact matters - I've heard it before and seen it argued from many sides.

I'm not saying this is what happened here (since I have no clue, no details and no context)..

If I say something and it hurts someone I should apologise - yes. But if I say it in utter unawareness that it is a pain point and get a group of people telling me off for being cruel/thoughtless/sexist/racist/agest/wrong etc I am also hurt by the encounter. Am I also entitled to an apology for being jumped on? Even if they don't feel like they jumped on me.

[lagilman]

You're kind of missing the point where they DIDN'T want to apologize, did so grudgingly and only after being called out, and then stomped off, which is the behavior I found irritating and childish.

If impact only matters then that person felt jumped on by two others..Were they also apologised to for that?

First: I never said impact ONLY matters. I said it MATTERS.

Second: Yes, as a matter of fact. Both when they disappeared - "oh, I didn't mean to hurt their feelings" (which they were able to see when they logged back on) and after, when we explained why we had reacted the way we did.

But that sort of plays up the problem, both that we apologized and that you think we needed to apologize, because we DIDN'T insult them. We raised doubts as to the veracity of what they said, with examples. They were insulted because we didn't agree with them.


[perhaps/perhaps not relevant, but a data point: the gender makeup of this was Original Speaker: male. Respondents: female]

[irishkate.livejournal.com]

No no - I am not talking about their childish behaviour - yes - that was childish if they had to be coerced into apologising and stomped off after. I get that they irritated you sufficiently to still be annoyed about it later and I'm sorry if I didn't give you venting space.

I'm talking about the idea impact matters. It's come up on various feeds now several times in the last few days and had me thinking about it.

They may have been overly childish and insulted that someone didn't agree with them. Or they felt intimidated and jumped on. Like I said - I haven't detail, context etc to comment on this particular instance.

The point of impact matters is that even if you don't actually insult someone, if that is how they take it, you need to apologise.

It makes this bit irrelevant "that you think we needed to apologize, because we DIDN'T insult them."

So I wasn't so much saying I think you needed to apologise as talking about Impact matters as a view point. If impact matters, they deserved an apology because they said they felt jumped on and you can't presuppose they actually didn't but were being childish.

(edited to correct where I put reply...)

[lagilman]

I think we're discussing two slightly different things, then, which confused me because you're phrasing it in response to the overall point I was trying to make - that we need to own up to our fuckups and apologize like adults, without being shamed into it.

Yes, if you say something careless or thoughtless, and it hurts someone without your intending it to do so, then absofuckinglutely apologize. That's basic playground manners. However, this is also dependent on people not claiming insult or injury for spurious reasons. "You made me feel like crap because you called me out on my shit" is not, IMO, valid reason to demand an apology.

[chrysoula.livejournal.com]

I've had far, far too much experience with people (men) refusing to admit that they did anything wrong if they said something that hurt or upset me. It's always my fault for being so sensitive or having no sense of humor or just not seeing their point of view. And it's always men, and often men I have an extremely amicable relationship with.

I'm _always_ apologizing for 'jumping on them' but getting an apology out of _them_ or any admission or understanding that they did something wrong is... well, it's never something that happens without some kind of extreme reaction so to me. The men I'm extremely amicable with have learned over time to at least go through the motions, possibly with attendant PTSD.

Argh. I could rant more, but...

[lagilman]

possibly relevant to the discussion, but certainly of interest in the "how not to apologize" category: http://www.geekmelange.com/2014/02/lack-of-sincerity-isnt-sean-p-foderas-problem/

[http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/]

Argh.
These situations are tricky, because there is no tone of voice or expression and it is so easy to read written words wrong. I wasn't there, but it sounds to me as if the person in question may be over-sensitive on this subject for some reason, and thus not paying attention to the effect their comments were having on you or discounting it, because they were so engaged with their own distress. Not an easy situation at all, and upsetting for all concerned.
I never know what to do in these sorts of things -- like Chrysoula, my instinct is to back down (and feel hurt about the one-sidedness). Sympathy.