a small but heartfelt rant

[lagilman]

An old friend of mine, who happens to be a minister, posted the following link to her facebook page:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

"Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics"

Pope Francis rocked some religious and atheist minds today when he declared that everyone was redeemed through Jesus, including atheists.

My friend, who is a genuinely good person, was pleased by this, as though it was a good thing.  And yeah, compared to "all who are not devout Catholic are going to hell" I guess it is.  Anything that cuts down on the justifications for abuse is a good thing.  Far better behavior than his unlamented-by-many predecessor.

However...

Like the Mormons posthumously "baptizing" Jews and claiming them for their heaven, this strikes me as vaguely offensive chutzpah.  He's saying "it doesn't matter what YOU believe, we're going to co-opt you anyway through OUR belief."  And I'm not sure how that's supposed to make us feel better about our relations with the Church.

Dude.  Try asking.  If we want to convert, we will.  if we don't, we've got our exit plan worked out already, thanks.

Comments

[jhetley.livejournal.com]

There's a certain level of arrogance involved in most religion.

[lagilman]

And also among many atheists.

Oh hell, among most humans.

That doesn't mean it should not be called-out.

[jperceval.livejournal.com]

I do agree, but I must admit I am going to enjoy the crap out of telling my uber-Catholic mother, "But your pope says I'm just fine!" next time she berates me for leaving the fold.

[ramurphy.livejournal.com]

A few things spring to mind.
First, I took what Pope Francis said in a more positive way. I thought he was saying that his was isn't the only way, and essentially, assuming one believes in pie in the sky by and by, you don't have to be Catholic to get there. Just good.
Second, I've never quite understood the virulent upset that occurs among many when their forebears are helpfully baptised by the Mormons. Whom does it hurt? The dead? The living? Unless one actually thinks that it has an effect on the living or the dead, however can it be construed as a problem?
Chutzpah? Sure. Arrogance? Absolutely. Any actual significance? None at all.

[http://users.livejournal.com/tesserae_/]

Second, I've never quite understood the virulent upset that occurs among many when their forebears are helpfully baptised by the Mormons.

If you *do* believe it is an action with a consequence, it's probably terrifying. As an atheist, I'm quite sure it's a delusion practice; however, it is deeply insulting to be told that *my* belief set, my moral principles are worthy of no respect whatsoever. It's a form of erasure that reminds me that, to these folks, I am probably worthy of no respect either...

[brickhousewench.livejournal.com]

it is deeply insulting to be told that *my* belief set, my moral principles are worthy of no respect whatsoever.

Thank you. You have just summed up my problem with all evangelical faiths in a single sentence.

Buddy Christ icon approves. ;-)

[scifantasy.livejournal.com]

Whom does it hurt? The dead? The living?

The history books.

In the words of Holocaust survivor Ernest Michel: "They tell me, that my parents' Jewishness has not been altered but ... 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?"

[lagilman]

well, "actual significance" probably depends on how well you take to being patronized and dismissed as a person.

Sorry, but I can't agree that it doesn't have significance. Especially coming from a large and still-powerful global organization with a history of forced conversions and persecution.

Also, what Scifantasy said.

[http://users.livejournal.com/tesserae_/]

Oh, ffs. As a proud (and cranky) atheist I don't *want* to be redeemed in Jesus & I find that the thought that this is necessary or desirable deeply insulting. Yes, it's probably an improvement over believing I should be burned at the stake or imprisoned in a FEMA camp, at least in terms of my personal liberties. But the seed of the impulse is exactly the same, and I would suggest that perhaps Pope Francis and his followers might look for something more useful to do with their time.

[6-penny.livejournal.com]

After the Spanish conquest an Inca when offered the chance to convert (and 'go to heaven') rather than be burned at the stake by the Inquisition asked if there would be Spaniards in heaven. When told 'Of course' said that he would rather burn!

[difrancis.livejournal.com]

Do you think that this is an effort to get all the Old Testament folks into Heaven? Those who couldn't be 'saved' because they came before Christ?

Not that I agree with it. I'm with you on the subject, but it's such an unexpected thing that I wonder what motivates it.

[lagilman]

I'd like to think the current Pope is trying to mend fences and Not Be a Dick, by his own standards. But that's the charitable valuation.

[mtlawson.livejournal.com]

Very charitable, considering he really clings to the hard Right on things such as Women Priests and Gay Rights, not to mention that Satan is out and about doing evil in the world.

I might as well grab some popcorn and watch the show when groups such as Agnus Dei protest.

[lagilman]

Satan is out and about doing evil in the world.

well, if you believe in God you probably need to believe in the devil.... and if you see not God but the good in humanity, you're also going to see the evil....

So yeah, the (d)evil is out and about in the world. Hard to watch the news and deny that.

[mtlawson.livejournal.com]

Of course, his comments about atheists doing good being redeemed seem to contradict his first homily as Pope, when he quoted Leon Bloy: "He who does not pray to the Lord prays to the Devil."

[deborahjross.livejournal.com]

I rather prefer the Jewish approach. You want to convert? Are you nuts? Do you have any idea what you're taking on? Go away and take classes -- study Hebrew, Torah, Talmud -- live through a year of holy days and remembrances. Then we'll let you talk to a bet din and if you can convince them you really really want to do this, then mazel tov!

[lagilman]

The reasons for that aren't so nice, tho.

Once Upon a Time, attempting to convert a Christian was a death sentence.... so the rabbis wanted to make damn sure the person approaching them was sincere in their desire.

(there are other reasons, too, but that's a pretty serious one)

[mt-yvr.livejournal.com]

Personally I'm all for posthumously converting several Popes to homosexuality. But that's just me.

I've had a long standing annoyance at this kind of thinking. I know, genuinely, that it's most likely not meant to be offensive ... but the bit that gets me is that this kind of thing often misses how it IS offensive.

"But... " But nothing. It actually is annoying if you're not of the same faith. Whiiiiich is not "this annoys everyone". Just so I'm clear that I'm not speaking for anyone but myself.

[etcet.livejournal.com]

It's insulting and condescending, in that "you'll grow out of it / understand when you get older" tone patronizing adults use on younger people.

Fuck 'em.

[kriz1818.livejournal.com]

At first I wanted to parse this as a version of the Noahide Laws type attitude, but on second thought and third thought: No. Magic Jesus does not get to pwn me, buddy.

[lagilman]

Yes. 'zactly.

[paulliver.livejournal.com]

Catholic theologians have always been more liberal than Catholic administration. Whispers and hints have floated around about this for awhile. I'm only surprised the pope made an issue of it, since the hard liners are his support.

[ext-1875921.livejournal.com (from livejournal.com)]

This might be offensive and/or arrogant sounding, but the pope was just re-affirming the idea that you do not have to be catholic in order to go to heaven. The idea behind this is to promote ecumenism between the different faiths. Since heaven is in itself a christian idea, probably an atheist wouldn't care.