asking the groupmind...

[lagilman]

Working on a new project, and I need to come up with a sigil that would be recognizable as meaning "justice" but that isn't overtly religious (of any religion).  EtA: not scales, or any of the usual legal system icons... this isn't a court of law.

You're a diverse and weirdly eddicated bunch... can anyone help?

Comments

[ellenmillion.livejournal.com]

A gavel or a scale?

[lagilman]

except this isn't a courtroom sort of justice... lawful but not legal,, as it were.

[ellenmillion.livejournal.com]

A fist, perhaps? Or is that too raw? If not raw enough, maybe a noose?

[chris-walsh.livejournal.com]

I'm picturing something involving hands: one held palm-forward in the "halt!" gesture, another palm-up in the offering gesture. But that might be both unclear and too gentle for this purpose. But I think something with hands would hit the mark. (A handshake is too particular to certain cultures to be universal enough.)

Tough to find an answer.

[lagilman]

well, yes. If it were easy, I would not need to throw open the question so widely... :-)

[spiffikins]

scales would be my first thought

[lagilman]

see my reply above.

[renesears.livejournal.com]

A scale? Or maybe a blindfold?

[lagilman]

see my reply above.

[spiffikins]

I could see, depending on the timeline/world - a sword could indicate "enforcement" of justice?

[brickhousewench.livejournal.com]

I was thinking sword too. But that may just be because I'm currently reading The Faithful Executioner (http://www.amazon.com/The-Faithful-Executioner-Turbulent-Sixteenth/dp/0809049929) and he is THE enforcer of justice in 16th century Nuremburg.

[redkite7.livejournal.com]

I found this one: http://obrunithroughghana.blogspot.com/2010/09/akan-symbols.html (#34, EPA).. two diamonds overlapping signifying handcuffs or chains, in that justice is taking an offender into custody?

Google also tells me Justice means
1. Just behavior or treatment.
2. The quality of being fair and reasonable.

but I'm not finding anything that would communicate any of those keywords well. Sorry, hope the first one helped a little.

[rosefox]

Justice as distinct from vengeance? What are the qualities of justice in this setting? Who dispenses it? Who determines it? Is "just" synonymous with "fair" or "equal"?

[lagilman]

Yes.

(it's all of that and more - it is the law but it's not a court of law. There is no distinction here between justice and revenge, and "fair" is determined by the holders.)

I'm not looking for something to represent the system, but the concept. Hence my not describing the setting or system.


(as I said in-thread, if it were easy I'd not need to draw down on the groupmind to find an answer...)

[irismoonlight.livejournal.com]

Hm. What's the punishment in this culture? The consequences of innocence or guilt?

Not a court of law or overtly religious ... magical symbol... does the source of the morality this justice is based on have any visual associations? Any phrases, weapons, themes or even animals it is associated with? I could see a Norse culture using a stylized axe or a stick raven figure; or a bog culture having a noose-shape ...

[lagilman]

I think at this point I'm going to have to create a basic word-sigil and imbue the context, rather than letting the sigil create the context. Which is actually more fun, if also more work...

[controuble.livejournal.com]

Since you don't want 'Murrican style "justice", how about a sword crossed with a wheat sheaf? It giveth and it taketh away.

[brownkitty.livejournal.com]

A circle in some form, as in "what goes around comes around," is too ambiguous, isn't it?

[lagilman]

Actually, that might work, as an element of the whole....

[cypherindigo.livejournal.com]

White Raven/Crow

[difrancis.livejournal.com]

In ancient Greece, sin was defined as harming others, and the only 'cure' for it was to put things back the way they before you did the harm. Of course that's impossible, but what you said reminded me of the concept. It's related to the notion of blind justice, in its way, but has more of a yin/yang feel to it. I also am reminded of these sculptures in front of the law school at UCD. http://www.ucdavis.edu/about/eggheads/index.html If you scroll down, you see the "see no evil, hear no evil."

So these two things together made me think of maybe two birds pecking at each other's shackles in a circular image. Something where one helps the other. Or maybe a bird and a lion, with the danger that once the shackles are released, someone might get eaten.

I'm probably way off base so I'm going away now.

[rovanda.livejournal.com]

A mirror, perhaps? Reflecting the consequences of one's actions back...

[mskiara.livejournal.com]

Would something recognizable to a reader as scales-like but-not-actually work? I'm thinking of a sword balanced atop a triangle (sort of like a see-saw), or if not a sword, maybe a flame.

I like the idea of a flame because it can be both creative (keeping warm/cooking) and destructive.

Although, honestly, the first symbol that came to mind was a scythe.

Yi - Chinese character for justice

[c. keith ray (from livejournal.com)]

The Chinese character for justice is very simple (and probably very old):

http://0.tqn.com/d/chineseculture/1/0/A/d/5/zi00054.gif

Chinese characters for Justice:

[c. keith ray (from livejournal.com)]

正义 justice, righteousness, right
义 justice, righteousness, morality, virtue, uprightness, humanities
公道 justice
欣赏 appreciation, justice