talking about things we'd rather we didn't have to talk about,

[lagilman]

More intelligent people saying useful things: Jim Hines talking about the "gray area" of sexual consent.

He makes two distinct and important points that, even if you're not able or willing to read the entire post, you need to take away with you.

1. "the phrase “mixed signals” means the signals are mixed. There’s no clear message as to what the person wants … meaning you have to find out. With as much miscommunication as you get in most relationships, don’t you think it’s a good idea to make sure you’re both on the same page?" (emphasis mine)

2. if you don't stop and clarify the situation, "You’re worried they’ll say no. Meaning you’re not sure they want this, and you’d rather risk committing rape than risk asking and being told no." (emphasis mine and Jim's)
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Masturbation only takes into consideration the needs of one person. Sex involves two (or more). It takes ten seconds to say "are you okay with this?" Drunk or sober, no matter how hot under the waistband you are, it takes ten seconds. If your partner is okay with this, they will let you know, clearly and enthusiastically (often with pleasurable results for all concerned).

If they're not....

If they're not, you have a choice: force the issue, or respect their hesitation. What choice you make determines what kind of a human being you are. And there's nothing gray about that.

Comments

Re: Sex

[lagilman]

People who leave anonymous links without any commentary get deleted, no matter how well-intentioned they might have been. Feel free to come back and explain the relevance of your link, and -- as per this LJ's rules -- identify yourself.

[peggin.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link, that was a great post. I also really like the post that he linked to on enthusiastic consent. "No means no" clearly doesn't go far enough, we need to start stressing that anything short of a clear and unequivocal "Yes!" means no.

[oceansedge.livejournal.com]

I love this, I love the concept, I love the ideology, I love the sensibility of it.

I've always been less than comfortable with 'No means no" - it always seemed to imply that then if she didn't say 'No' she must mean 'Yes'

How about she means yes, if she says YES! If she enthusiastically says "YES!" and enthusiastically participates? I like that much better. 'If in doubt, leave it out'.

[cypherindigo.livejournal.com]

May I repost? You say it much better than I ever could.

Thank you

[lagilman]

repost/link at will.

[molten-alchemy.livejournal.com]

Don't forget, that if the person asking is the one that got the person drunk? It's still a form of rape and punishable on a felony level.

[babita781.livejournal.com]

There is still a gray area. It's often the man, but can be the woman, who seduces the other by continuing things the seducee has already consented to, until the seducee finally wants to "go all the way". In the morning, the seducee may regret the night before, but that isn't rape. Unlike Whoopi Goldberg, I know that what Roman Polanski did was rape (a child, no less). And, absolutely, date rape exists, but so does seduction. It's a gray area in which only the seducer/rapist and the seducee/rapee(?)--rape victim--know for sure, and even then there can be a difference of opinion. Perhaps the answer IS to do what one college did several years ago, and explicitly ask "May I?" before moving on to the next action. I think a lot of rape victims confuse what happened to them as seduction and blame themselves. But I have been seduced into doing more than I intended to on a date, and I knew in the morning that I had been caught up in the moment, and that the seducer hadn't done anything in anyway to force me.

[lagilman]

I have to strongly disagree with you. Rape is without consent. If consent is not or cannot be given, there is no grey area.

If consent is given, and either party regrets it the morning after, that's buyer's remorse. I've never heard of a rape victim "confusing" it as seduction: they know they did not give consent.

[babita781.livejournal.com]

I don't think we disagree, I think I expressed myself poorly. A woman always knows she was raped, but the rapist, since seduction does exist, does not always know he raped. That's why explicit agreement at each stage might be a good idea, as silly as it sounds. I didn't mean to imply that a woman who feels raped in the morning wasn't, she was. Just that getting carried away (buyer's remorse) does happen, too. It's frightening to think that a rape, actual and true, can occur, and the rapist honestly doesn't think that that is what he did. But I do think that happens sometimes.

[travelintheways.livejournal.com]

Linked by KRAD. You put this so well and so succintly - I wish this were common sense, but we have to keep talking about it until it is.