open for discussion...

[lagilman]

Ohboy. Hearing reports that "Sin Washer" in FLESH AND FIRE is being considered blasphemous by some Xtian readers.

*boggles*

Technically, I'm not sure it's possible for me, as a non-Christian, to be blasphemous. Not that accuracy has ever stopped such accusations.

So.. you folk who have read the book: what do you think?



(I'll share my own thoughts in comments in a bit, so's not to possibly spoil anyone to the story/background).

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/tesserae_/]

That is excellent publicity...

[lagilman]

True, and I'm not above milking it, if it comes to that. But I'm most curious as to reader reactions...

[http://users.livejournal.com/tesserae_/]

Yes. As a (cranky) non-christian, most of these things go right over my head...

[wedschilde.livejournal.com]

i think you use it fine. :::nods::: ♥

[wedschilde.livejournal.com]

oh... and probably not blaphemous because sin washer wasn't copyrighted by the xtians.

[kradical.livejournal.com]

It's only blasphemous if you're a moron. Sigh.

[lagilman]

or if you presume that all else before your version of Religion does not exist/is also blasphemous. Which I'm sure some folk out there DO believe.

I was aware, of course, of the Christ correlations when I wrote the mythology --this is an alternate history, and as such has a great many parallels, starting with the Etruscan period and deviating sharply soon after (but maintaining the basics of trade/warfare and civilized development along the wine-producing lands). But the only real blasphemy charge I could see them leveling is the fact that in this world there is no Jewish-Christian-Muslim religious base at all -- none of those gods/prophets emerged!

In which case, yes, color me guilty as charged -- of writing speculative fiction.

[maryrobinette.livejournal.com]

Anything dealing with the Christ story is blasphemous if you show corruption in what corresponds to the church.

That's not my POV, but I know a lot of folks for whom it is.

[lagilman]

well, as a semi-practicing Jew I'm already a blasphemer by their standards, never mind what I write.

(although I am told Jews get put into a "may be saved if they will only repent" category by dint of grandfathering? I'm not sure I'd thank them for that special treatment...)

[kradical.livejournal.com]

In which case, yes, color me guilty as charged -- of writing speculative fiction.

STONE THE HERETIC!!!!!!!

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

Uh. Fantasy world? Did they miss that part?

[seachanges.livejournal.com]

Apparently so. AFAIK, Christianity doesn't even exist in this world. That, and sin washing/sin eating are ancient concepts that predate Christianity by a fair bit.

[rolanni.livejournal.com]

I think the most a non-believer can do to Religion X is disrespect it; blasphemy is for one's home religion.

Unfortunately, there are a fair number of people out there who have never twigged to the fact that fiction is made up.

[jhetley.livejournal.com]

Well, there are certain groups agitating for a world ban on blasphemy -- brought on by Those Cartoons, of course.

[kriz1818.livejournal.com]

Dictionary Lass sez:

blaspheme: 1) to speak impiously or irreverently of (God or sacred things); 2) to speak evil of; slander.

blasphemy: 1) impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things; 2) Judaism, a) an act of cursing or reviling God, b) pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton ... 3) Theol., the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God; 4) irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.

(Random House Unabridged).

... Nope, that word doesn't mean what they thing it means.

Possibly they're looking for "heresy," but that would make them look even sillier ...

[chaoticgoodnik.livejournal.com]

My family background is Christian, but I wouldn't say I qualify as one (agnostic). The parallels were clear. It occurred to me as I read it that the polytheistic background and the part about Sin Washer not (initially) having much sympathy for humans might rub certain kinds of Christians the wrong way.

Hopefully some readers who identify as Christians will comment here. I'd be quite interested to read what they think.

[lagilman]

Oh, I knew that I would irritate/annoy some readers with that. The nature of the book's crisis is that Sin Washer gave them a stopgap fix, in a lot of ways-- much more akin to the impetuous Classical gods than the idea of an omniscient deity.

[benreeder.livejournal.com]

Go Suricattus! Accused of blasphemy! Way to break ground as a writer!

As a recovering Southern Baptist (now a wiccan), I have to say that, in my personal experience, the word tends to mean whatever suits the purpose of the people using it. "Definitions and such be hanged, WE say it's blasphemy, and only we have the direct line to GAWD! GlorytagawdhallelujahcanIgetanAMEN, brothers and sisters?"

But yeah, technically, to blaspheme, I'd always beleived, was to essentially bad mouth God, while heresy was to disagree with Church doctrine on Biblical matters. Sounds like you've done neither.

So, in essence, it takes work to blaspheme, but it takes independent thought to be heretical....

[lagilman]

*snerk* You realize, of course, that you've just said, in effect, that I put neither work nor independent thought into my book....

[benreeder.livejournal.com]

No, I didn't...oops. That'll teach me to write a quick comment before work. I'm sure you know(or at least hoping) I didn't mean to imply that. This is probably why I'm not published yet.

I'll be in the back, trying not to be noticed as I try to pry my molars out of my feet.

[martianmooncrab.livejournal.com]

(whipping out the tools and filing down) You could just sell indulgences..

[sorek.livejournal.com]

They probably didn't realize you're Jewish and they were too lazy to find out.

[mtlawson.livejournal.com]

I doubt it matters. People will believe what they want to believe. There are plenty of people out there who think that anything from the SF/F genres is blasphemous anyway, so you really can't win. Witness what J.K. Rowling went through in this country, for pete's sake. (I'm not sure how much press that got on the coasts, but in the Midwest and South there were some pretty big chunks of the populace out there who were (and are) convinced that Harry Potter is Satanic.)

Now, if only you could get Dan Brown or Last Temptation of Christ style outrage, you'd be all set...

[badgermirlacca.livejournal.com]

I think there are folks out there who are looking for excuses, and you can't do anything about stupid.

[joycemocha.livejournal.com]

Not blasphemous to me. But I'm a Catlick, not a Babtist.

Seriously, the whole story of Sin Washer is significantly different from the Christian story that it boggles the mind. My guess is that they just went with the name and didn't read the book.

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe those "blasphemy!" folks just can't quite grasp this concept: if you find something offensive (for whatever reason), then QUIT READING IT.

Sheesh.

The Resurrectionist

[(Anonymous)]

Weird. I thought you were promoting Christianity. The Vineyard is commonly thought of as God's people (which I can back up Biblicly, but I know that's not the purpose of your thread here). Anyways, the way I read into this, I see many "Christ-like" characters apart from Sin Washer. I also see a lot of Christian like characters as well. Even the fact that the grapes are full of power makes me link grapes and it's users to Christians.

Also I see the spirit of Religion as a negative, and the spirit of politics as a negative, while the spirit of the Vineart (which I'd equate to Christian) as a positive.

I think people will read into it what they've experienced... I mean, I'm obviously walking away with a different perpective then people who would think it's blasphemous.

some mishnah on the text...

[lagilman]

Hrmm. Well, the reader is never wrong, but the reader also brings their own expectations to the story.

The character of Sin Washer has a much older, far more pagan base -- as does the magic within the wine/earth, which religions were using long before Christianity had a focus, much less a following. In truth, none of the three "groupings" (Power, Faith and Isolation) are positive, and non of the people are even remotely intended to be "Christ-like" -- even Sin Washer, if you read carefully, was a vindictive and short-tempered god who was moved to mercy only by specific acts of kindness, and even that "kind act" was actually the move of a vicious bastard trying to do something right -- more like Apollo than Christ!

And the mortal heroes are those who see what needs to be done, and then do it. Again, that's a thematic statement far older than two thousand years!

[blitheringpooks.livejournal.com]

I read the first line and got a delicious chill because I thought you were going to do something twisty with the Christian ideas of "magic" (which of course are called "miracles," and "sacraments," not "magic"). But it was quickly clear that you were going in a very different direction.

And yes, I'm a Christian, but I started out Methodist and am now Episcopalian and there are many who don't think I've even been truly baptised, much less am a "real" Christian, and those are most likely the types who are bent around the axle about Sin Washer. (They are also the types who don't believe in "magic" (as in sacraments, as in, the wine/grape juice/whatever truly having any power, so have the least to be threatened by. They scorn and condemn those who do believe there's power in the Eucharist, so the whole discussion is probably very confusing for you and fascinating in its idiocy to me.)

In other words--

Well done!

[blitheringpooks.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes. Is the controversy showing up online? Perhaps you don't want to feed the fire with links...

[lagilman]

No links -- I already picked up enough crazy spammers with the "why do Christians think..." Church politics thread.