on being a writer in a non-writing world...

[lagilman]

Not much to post about -- working on a new project, waiting to hear on other projects, putting the finishing touches on my travel plans for the next three months or so. Very boring to blog about. Oh, and the Collective volleyball team is now 2-2, if anyone was wondering. We did not play well tonight (I say 'we' but I was on IR because of a pulled leg muscle from Saturday night. Not that I could have made any huge difference. Some nights the teamwork just isn't there.)

Anyway.

One thing did happen recently that left me pondering, so I'm going to ponder in public.

Monday night was the Collective's weekly Happy Hour, which was held (by popular demand) in the courtyard of the Temple Grill, which not only has excellent food but serves its (good) wine in proper-sized glasses. I am single-handly working to raise awareness of wines among my margarita-swilling, beer-guzzling, cosmo-downing buddies. So far, so good -- I've gotten C, at least, hooked on German whites, and M. was intriged by my zinfandel (it was a Cline. What's not to like?).

But I digress, as the thing which caused me to ponder was when the conversation took a sideways swoop into matters alternative (lifestyle). It was a pretty frank and interesting discussion, which then ended and moved on. No big -- except that it caused a newcomer to our table to be told "hey, you just missed the porn."

And everyone looked at me, as though I were the instigator. And I said as much, adding with a long-suffering sigh: "I don't know why I always get tarred with that brush."

"Because you were the one talking about S&M?"

"It wasn't S&M, it was..." *pause* "Y'know what? Never mind. I'm really very vanilla."

Laughter followed, before we moved on to the next conversation.

But. As I said, it got me thinking.

Apparently, among normal (non-writer) folk, having certain (theoretical) knowledge is NOT considered vanilla*. They weren't shocked (okay, some of them were), but the thought of knowing something that was not of personal importance, or work-related (or sports trivia), simply for the interest of knowing it.... It was an alien concept to them. And sexual alternatives? It, apparently, had never occured to them to investigate beyond the random bits that came their way via popular culture or scandal, even though it was clearly of enough interest to have a casual exchange about it -- and to be pleased when they found someone to explain certain terms and psychologies to them**. And it wasn't because they were embarassed to be talking about sex, either -- I was not the one, um, oversharing at the table, because NOYDB, thanksverymuch. And it wasn't because they were white middle class straights, either -- we had a decent blending that night.

And I realized: the world constantly astounds me with its lack of curiosity. If you know someone who has a different approach to life, you can either ignore it, or explore it. Ignoring it seems to very.... boring, no? And I happen to be honestly interested in how other people experience the world. This too seems to be odd to my lawyer and engineer and architect friends, as otherwise intelligent as they are.


I can't imagine not poking around curiously at things. When we're told to "write what we know," it always sounded like a clarion call to know more, not write less.

But maybe that's just me.



*this used to get me in trouble at the office, too. I blame Disclave....


** as an aside, is the psychology of D/S really all that weird? I don't subscribe to it myself (TMI!) but I can see where it works for some people, emotionally... (and makes some characters act the way they do, and other writerly things which belong in another post, if there's interest)

Comments

[ianrandalstrock.livejournal.com]

T'ain't just you. I am frequently amazed by the things people around me don't know, and apparently never thought about. In any "mundane" situation (is it mundane if it isn't sf?), I usually find myself the "authority" simply because I read more/ask more/know more different types of people. Sometimes it's fun, but then it gets really depressing when they're using slang that I don't know (and they laugh when I ask for an explanation).

But yeah, trying to find out more about the world, or anything in it, seems definitely a writerly trait, and far less a common trait than it ought to be.

[antonstrout.livejournal.com]

I hate the look friends give me when characters in my writing do strange or deviant things, and they look at me like I MUST have those traits myself if I wrote them like that.

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

I once wrote the first few pages of a very wrenching and brutal story about African child soldiers while I was staying with relatives. Then lost it there. I have no idea who found it or what they thought.

[elizawrites.livejournal.com]

I know how you feel. I think you have to be pretty curious to be a writer anyway, so when you display some of that knowledge then suddenly you're a sexual freak? No, it's just that the internet will tell you everything you ever wanted to know, whether or not you actually want to do it. I think it goes back to the earlier days of the romance genre -- if you wrote any kind of sex at all then people looked at you funny.

Notice men don't get these same strange looks.

[deire.livejournal.com]

One of the things that make me very happy about writing, art, and acting would be what my friend Val noted: any piece of knowledge can be used, in any area. Curiosity is a joy. And the arts reward that joy. As do other areas, to be fair, but not as much that broad curiousity that is so good for the mind.

[lizziebelle.livejournal.com]

I hear you! It's amazing how small most people's worlds are. It must be so dull.

[lagilman]

I've written characters with sexual kinks, childlike innocence, social dysfunction, paranoia, masochism, courage under fire, overt cruelty, open-hearted joy, and pretty much every spectrum of the emotional and psychological rainbow, ofen layered on top of each other. I don't think of them in those terms -- Sergei's Sergei, not a sexual deviant with trust and control issues -- but I have to have at least some understanding of where they are in order to make them real.

But understanding something doesn't mean you have to live it (insert line about the abyss looking back, here). If you do, there's more going in your brain than characters in search of a publication date.

IMLayperson'sO, anyway.

[lagilman]

Oh, guys get that look, too. It's just that they sometimes get it for different things.

(and trust me -- a person who looks askance at me for knowing what 'topping from below' means is going to give a guy the same look -- or even worse. And god help the straight male who knows any gay slang beyond what you can pick up from 'Queer Eye.')

[nick-kaufmann.livejournal.com]

Some people just don't understand a good power fantasy.

[nick-kaufmann.livejournal.com]

People are always looking at each other like that on CSI. Have you noticed? Someone will say something like, "Handcuffs chafe," and the others will raise their eyebrows and give a look that says, "You're so freaky!"

[eeknight.livejournal.com]

And at the other end of the teeter-totter, being able to justify your porn expenditures and leather gear collection as "research" is pretty sweet!

[lagilman]

repeat after me the mantra: "I'm a writer. It's research. Everything is research. Therefore, everything is deductible."


Well, almost everything.

[thecityofdis.livejournal.com]

When we're told to "write what we know," it always sounded like a clarion call to know more, not write less.

I'm stealing that.

*steals*

[dsgood.livejournal.com]

A couple of times, I've mentioned in fanprint or on line that George Orwell was a socialist -- and gotten back "But he couldn't have been! He was an anti-Communist!"

Having had three Marxist grandparents has probably made me more aware of sectarian differences than I might have been otherwise; but I would think anyone interested in world events and the political history of the 20th century would be aware that not all Marxists are in the same church.

I've heard and read people saying how boring supermarket trips are. Not to me, because I look around for items I wouldn't think of buying but which I find interesting. Is there a reason to use special salt for making margaritas? This store is selling injera (the East African bread which looks like a gray sponge). What mixture of food imported from Mexico, Hispanic foods from Texas (for example, spaghetti with the label partially in Spanish) and Taco Bell sauces is there in the Hispanic section today?

No explanations needed or given.

[caryabend.livejournal.com]

*this used to get me in trouble at the office, too. I blame Disclave....

"Hang in there," he said dryly.

Stumbling in from Krad's

[kessadebra.livejournal.com]

So ummm, where's the beer? ;-)

Interesting exchange. I stumbled onto this discussion just as silliness from Krad's LJ but I like your questions. I just wanted you to know I am not out trolling for people to read my fanfic but I have a story that may intrigue you about the psychology of D/s. It is not a story for everyone, but the psychology of it is heavily involved (but so is the s/m and sex so please stay away if that offends because that is not my objective).
Finding Solace: http://fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=7690. I am more than interested in continuing a line of questions concerning the topic as long as judgments stay at the door :-)

[hilleviw.livejournal.com]

In general outline I agree with you, but I suspect it's more a matter of being a thinker in a non-thinking world than being a writer in a non-writerly world. I mean, I work as a researcher and trained as a librarian, and those are also areas which draw people who have lots of curiosity.

It's not just about alternate lifestyles, either.

[(Anonymous)]

I've seen this in all manner of areas, and not just concerning alternative lifestyles. I've had to bite my tongue more than a few times to keep from saying "How did you manage to reach adulthood, and go through elementary school, junior high, senior high, and college and not know this?"

It's not just lack of curiosity -- it's a sort of deliberate blindness to the richness of the world. It leaves me despairing on occasion, because I can't even describe the world I live in to most folks I know. They would simply lack the referents to get my explanation. (And I live in largely the same world they do, but I see it rather differently. Explaining how my viewpoint differs from theirs is a lost cause.)

But given some recent experiences, I have been tempted to get a T-Shirt made that reads "No, I don't know everything. I just know more than you do!" This is kind of depressing, because I don't consider myself all that well informed, but it seems to be the case. It's probably a side effect of a lively interest in just about everything. I live in my head, love learning, and like knowing how everything works. Other folks seem to live in thier body, and prefer to learn only what is necessary to function. The less they have to think about, and the more they can handle as an matter of ritual not requiring thought, the better.

"*this used to get me in trouble at the office, too. I blame Disclave...."

I just read a novel where the protagonist finds himself talking to the mother of a girl he has entered into a D/S relationship with, and discovers the acorn didn't fall far from the tree.

"Were you at Disclave?"
"No, but I heard about it..."

(The girl, meanwhile, is having a very hard time handling the new perspective on her mother...)

I think Disclave has become known among a far larger portion of the general public than most suspect.

"** as an aside, is the psychology of D/S really all that weird? I don't subscribe to it myself (TMI!) but I can see where it works for some people, emotionally... (and makes some characters act the way they do, and other writerly things which belong in another post, if there's interest)"

*shrug* Define "weird". Unfortunately, the rule of thumb for that for most folks tends to be "anything I wouldn't do."

I don't find it especially weird. I know a bit about that particular subculture, and while there are folks in it I'd consider weird, I understand at least some of the motivations. As you comment, it works for them. The ones I consider weird aren't weird because they are into D/S -- they're weird because they're into DS nearly to the exclusion of everything else.

The analogy is SF fandom. I've been involved in that a long time. For most folks, it's a hobby, and fan doings are a pleasant break from Real Life. For a few folks, SF fandom is Real Life, and they've managed to make a living out of it, as dealers or the like, and have very little interaction with anyone who isn't a fan save out of necessity.

There are folks like that in the D/S scene, too. It's the single-mindedness I find weird.
______
Dennis

[scarlettina.livejournal.com]

I'll never forget one particular moment during my Egypt tour, when one of the girls asked how a hooka worked and I began, very matter-of-factly, to explain. The whole tour group looked at me as if I'd just sprouted another head. I was forced to wonder if none of them had ever used a water pipe, which operates quite similarly.

It also made me wonder (and continues to make me wonder to this day) what people like this think about. I work with people like this now. All the girls on my team: they are an incurious bunch. When they discovered how well my boss and I were getting along, they asked about it, and I realized it's because he too is a writer, artist and musician. These disciplines teach you to look at the world differently, I have come to understand, and I don't regret it for a moment. I feel as though my life is infinitely richer for it, and I can only be sorry for them.

[caryabend.livejournal.com]

These disciplines teach you to look at the world differently

It's not just that. It's anything that encourages questioning and forging connections between disparate ideas. There's also probably a cultural bias, especially if you're Jewish.

[kriz1818.livejournal.com]

You haven't taught college students, have you.

The administration insists that the students do evaluations of all instructors every semester, and the thing that bowled me over when I got my first ones back was the people who said "You know so much about this stuff!" When I mostly parroted the textbook and yanked the occasional example out of the newspapers. There I was, thinking "I know nothing!" and to these students the fact that I knew *anything* was amazing.

Which doesn't explain why I'm currently engaged in learning *more*, even though I'm not teaching at all this semester.

[agamisu.livejournal.com]

You know what? People give me weird looks anyway, just by what comes out of my mouth. It's that free-associative writerly thought jumping thing. It's not necessarily about knowledge, I think.

[lagilman]

People give me weird looks anyway, just by what comes out of my mouth.


Yeah, but I think we can get a majority vote on the fact that you're just...weird.

I kinda like it, tho.

[delkytlar.livejournal.com]

People give me weird looks anyway, just by what comes out of my mouth.


Yeah, but I think we can get a majority vote on the fact that you're just...weird.

I'll second that. Now call for the vote.

[delkytlar.livejournal.com]

I get this sort of thing all the time. I don't know if it's because I write that I'm so damned curious about the world, or because I've read so much non-fiction in so many areas that I need to write to find a valid use for all the stuff in my head. In any event, I tend to be the go-to guy for information in most of the non-writer circles in which I travel. Within writer groups, I tend to be in awe of the things my colleagues know (you certainly always seem several steps ahead of me in some areas, suri).

My wife was born in Vietnam, and only came here when she was 12. She's very book smart, but missed picking up a lot of formative general knowledge. She's always asking me questions about things she sees on TV, or reads in the paper. Half the time, she expects me to have the answer. The other half, she doesn't believe the explanations I give. Sometimes, I just play dumb because I know that some bit of non-traditional information I do have will just freak her out (explaining Furry Fandom after that CSI episode was sort of the tipping point in this regard).

[kalligraphy.livejournal.com]

I'm either an oddball, or it is not just a writerly thing, but I seem to constantly amaze people by the fact that I can hold thoughtful intelligent conversations on nearly any subject. I recently amazed a couple of Canadians when I understood Canadian politics and knew what curling was. I just never stopped learning and can't imagine ever wanting to stop.

[iamrazorwing.livejournal.com]

Lotsa hats in this ring, so here’s mine. I’m Matt—long-time reader, first-time commenter. I heard you on one of the panels at Philcon in December, and, through a series of events I can’t recall, I found myself here.

I agree with you entirely about the lack of curiosity today. Whenever I tell people I have an interest in sexuality, they give me this look: “Of course you do. Who doesn’t?” I took a Psychology of Sexuality course in undergrad, and that ignited my interest in the subject. It’s such a simple act, but it’s also fraught with all sorts of riddles and mysteries. The complexity and range of issues it entails is, personally, fascinating.

But I’m curious about plenty of other things. Dream interpretation, astrology, myth and folklore, ancient warfare, memory, genealogy, falconry, and more besides. Sure, as a fellow writer, I can see it’s all grist for the mill, but I just like to know things. Must be the writer, and the Scorpio, in me.

[lagilman]

Sure, as a fellow writer, I can see it’s all grist for the mill, but I just like to know things.


Oh, absolutely. I'm currently working with an architect on a project, and I find myself absorbing information and terms I'll never really have a use for, just because it's New!Shiny! information. And it lets me talk to my friend C, who is a structural engineer, about her own work. And when I find new info on something I'm personally interested in -- well, let's just say that I went from a white zinfandel "it's a grape, right?" wine drinker to the annoying know-and-share I am today in very little time, simply by absorbing the information along with the alcohol... :-)

Oh, and be welcome!

[lagilman]

it would make a good tag line, wouldn't it? I may have to have a t-shirt made of same....

Re: Stumbling in from Krad's

[lagilman]

Beer's over in the cooler behind the bar. Currently we have Sam Adams Summer Lager, Bass, and Harp. Any requests should be passed through the cabana boy when he comes back with the next round of boat drinks...

Re: Stumbling in from Krad's

[kessadebra.livejournal.com]

There are boat drinks? No one told me there would be boat drinks...

"Oh Cabana Boy, I'd like something with an umbrella in it, please." *grin*

Re: Stumbling in from Krad's

[lagilman]

Four things you will always find in suri's den -- a well-stocked bar, tasty scorpion canapes, a secure broadband terminal, and lively conversation....

[tru2myart.livejournal.com]

It's really not just writers but artists in general who suffer from the lack of curiosity world around us.
Example: I paint nudes, mainly nude woman. I find a certain beauty in the female form and I love to capture it on the canvas. I am consistently asked if I'm homosexual. To which my response is always the same "Does my sexuality have to come into question in order for me to appreciate beauty, no matter where that beauty may lie?"
Other situations involving pieces where I evoke violence, death, sex of any kind etc all bring about similar questions. Have I, would I, I must have.... No, I resarch, I delve into my surroundings, I try to understand the way that the minds around me work and expand my universe.

I think of that old cliche about how television is corroding our minds...I honestly don't think it's television so much as it is our minds corroding our minds. We have to stop closing ourselves off from the world around us and allow ourselves the opporunity to learn or there's nowhere left for us to go.

There, I've waxed my one philosophical moment of the day.

[moon-happy.livejournal.com]

You have obviously tapped in to a shared experience. I like it when my friends and acquaintences are tolerant of my being curious about odd topics. I become very annoyed when I discover my behavior embarrasses them. Oh, well. They'll get over it.

[lagilman]

Friends let friends be weird.


:-)

[booraven22.livejournal.com]

I'll throw my two cents in as well. My husband and I are both information junkies. Not anything in particular, though we have our pet topics (His is languages and vexillology, mine is ancient history and comparative mythology). We just take it for granted that when one of us finds an interesting snippet of information, say a new species discovered or a previously undiscovered link between two seemingly divergent languages, the other will go, "Huh. That's so cool!" We just like LEARNING new things. Luckily we have a small tight group of friends that are also sponges (See tru2myart as references) But if we get together with some of our family or heaven forbid, co-workers, all we get is blank stares for most of our conversation. We have accumulated so much minutiae and random facts that we can just ramble on about it for hours and amuse the hell out of each other with it. Then it kinda dawns on us that everyone else is fidgeting. I've even received questions like" Why would anyone be interested in THAT?" or "Who cares?". And yes, I have to agree with Laura about the giant leap of assumption that comes with the mention of anything fringe, like alternative lifestyles, kinky practices or uncomfortable religious opinions. People seem to make the leap from "I know about that" to "Me and the husband dress in leather and spank each other while discussing Stem Cell Research" (Although I can't claim to be vanilla, I think that's a bit of stretch there...) ::Shrugs:: I think as a whole, most people just don't like to think outside the myopic list that mainstream culture allows for in "Normal conversation", and curiosity is DEFINITELY in short supply these days.

Okay that was more like a quarter worth of commentary...

Re: It's not just about alternate lifestyles, either.

[(Anonymous)]

Dennis wrote:

suri wrote:
"*this used to get me in trouble at the office, too. I blame Disclave...."

I just read a novel where the protagonist finds himself talking to the mother of a girl he has entered into a D/S relationship with, and discovers the acorn didn't fall far from the tree.

"Were you at Disclave?"
"No, but I heard about it..."

(The girl, meanwhile, is having a very hard time handling the new perspective on her mother...)

I think Disclave has become known among a far larger portion of the general public than most suspect.

LOL If that's the same book I'm thinking of, I believe the author did some research, so he wouldn't count as "general public." Of course, the fact that his books are popular might have increased public interest in Disclave.

suri wrote:
I don't subscribe to it myself (TMI!) but I can see where it works for some people, emotionally... (and makes some characters act the way they do, and other writerly things which belong in another post, if there's interest)"

::waves raised hand:: Interest! Right here!

IMO, people consider "weird" activities *they* wouldn't consider taking part in. In that case, an amateur entomologist's interest in insects would be weird, as would eating fried locusts (a local delicacy). D/S is just one of the more obvious things for them to look askance at, since it touches on sexual norms/issues. Possibly, they also equate knowledge with interest in hands-on experience.

Most of the people I've met take comfort in limiting their boundaries. I suspect it gives them a sense of control.

-- Katherine

[mt-yvr.livejournal.com]

There are some of us that see, and some of us that simply look.

(shrug) Today I tend to believe that those seeing the world are drawn to either frame parts of it or assemble new things by asking "and if I put this with this and this, what do I get?"

Other days I think it's because we want to interact with what we see. Sometimes I'm even convinced that it has to do with communication, a love of what we see and bringing it from "obvious" to "seen".

I think a certain type of person observes and is curious, and that kind of person is often interested in or drawn to the arts. For a lack of better term.

What amuses me is not that I get the "whaaa?" for information. It's that I get it for having an opinion. On everything. There are few things I don't have some minor information in my head about, and if I do I generally have some feeling or opinion about it. Knowledge is one thing, doing something with it is what seems to trip up the people around me.

Because, well, everyone seems to be accepting of my weirdness. Or at least seems to figure out it's a non-issue with me.

[kessadebra.livejournal.com]

I'd like to continue down the "opinions" tangent if I may.

One thing I have found with many non-research type people is that they don't seem to understand the difference between opinion and judgement. I too have learned about a vast amount of things in my life and I am the first to admit that I am opinionated but I also understand intrinsically that everyone sees things differently; it is strange how so many other people just decide I am judging them, label me as such and want little to do with me. Some days it bothers me, others days; not so much (but thats my own little psychosis).