National Identity Card?

[lagilman]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/11/politics/11identity.html

Not liking this one so much, myself. How much info goes on that card? And who gets to see it? And how much restriction is there on what they can do with it? As the ancients asked, who watches the watchers?


And when does it go from "stopping the terrorists" to "keeping track of the (ethnic group of choice)?" Don't say it can't happen here. It can happen anywhere. All it takes is Someone to get scared enough.

Comments

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Don't say it can't happen here

It already has - internment camps, anyone?

But on the other hand, I support standardizing the driver's license requirements and info across states; did even before 9/11. There are a hell of a lot of unfit drivers who just have to cross state lines to get a new license and get back to vehicular manslaughter. It's also silly that some state was allowing a muslim woman to have her driver's license photo taken with a face veil on. That was not proof of identity of any kind!

A voluntary card, like a license - not really having a problem there.

[kalligraphy.livejournal.com]

I always get appalled when I mention some fear of government gone awry and people say, "That wouldn't happen in America." Apparently they are clueless to the fact that suffarettes in the early 20th Century were beaten and abused by prison guards in order to teach them a lesson about their place in society. They are clueless to the internment camps that were used to imprison Japanese Americans during WWII. They are clueless to invasions and attacks by the House Unamerican Activities Commitee in the 50's. The police brutatlity directed towards African Americans struggling for equal rights in the early 60's. Or the police brutality directed towards peace activists in the late 60's and early 70's. It can very much happen here. Already we are seeing the abridging of civil rights in order to fight terrorism. Free speech, freedom of movement, submission to searches, every little assault on our civil liberties brings us one step closer to tyranny. Yet there seems to be a state of mind in this country right now that people will accept whatever is needed in the name of security and fighting the war against terror. Is this not letting the terrorists win? When we eliminate the values we hold most dear, are we not allowing the terrorists to achieve victory by changing our way of life? Personally, I often think that I would rather die at the hands of a terrorist than see one more civil liberty abridged. I would consider that the cost of freedom.

--Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither.-- Ben Franklin

[lagilman]

I agree with you about standardizing the requirements -- the fac tthat a NJ drivers test is acknowledged to be tougher than most other states sort of scares me -- as does the fact that the age requirement is different.

However...

A voluntary card, like a license - not really having a problem there.

Except for a lot of us, a drivers' license isn't voluntary -- you need it in order to, for example, get to work. Mass transit just isn't an option in many states, once you get out of the cities.

And, as I said above, we don't know what sort of info is gong to be added to this potential new form of i.d. card. I want that spelled out, cleanly and clearly. It's my life they've got their fingers in, that gives me a vested interested.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Yet there seems to be a state of mind in this country right now that people will accept whatever is needed in the name of security and fighting the war against terror. Is this not letting the terrorists win? When we eliminate the values we hold most dear, are we not allowing the terrorists to achieve victory by changing our way of life?

Yeah, but hang on a second. They're talking about standardizing driver's licenses, a voluntary ID card that thousands of people routinely get, and have gotten for generations. They're talking about standardizing the information that is already gathered for those licences and pooling it in one place. It's not as though the police can't already get license info, it's not as though the cards are becoming mandatory, it's not as though we don't already give over quite a bit of personal information for those things... information which has not, during the decades in which licensing has been in place, used against any group of people.

I'm a hell of a lot more upset about no-fly lists than I am about standardizing and pooling driver's license info.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Mass transit just isn't an option in many states, once you get out of the cities.

Tell me about it, I drive 300 miles a week just for work. But I'd rather put my energy into fighting that unnecessary info, like religion, not be added rather than fighting the concept entirely. Terrorists aside, if we had a system like this in place, we wouldn't have problems like the multi-car crashes were we find out that the driver at fault has had her license suspended in another state and just came here. We wouldn't have men running out on child support/divorce settlements simply by crossing a state line.

I live on the intersection of three states (DC counts, kinda). All you have to do to duck a bad driving record is move a mile and reregister, and bet that your past won't catch up to you... and if it does, you can move again while the powers that be fight state-to-state extradition laws. That sucks beyond the power of tongue to tell.

So while I'll fight that the card not have unnecessary info, I'm going to fight equally hard that there is a standardized card. We're losing lives over it already.

[lagilman]

Mmm. And I quote --

"The provision would allow the Homeland Security Department to require use of the license, or an equivalent card issued by motor vehicle bureaus to nondrivers for identification purposes, for access to planes, trains and other modes of transportation."

So they're also talking about requiring someone to have it in order to allow them on public transport (trains, planes, etc). How does that make it "voluntary" if not having it restricts your freedom of movement?

Also, "The Senate version of the intelligence bill includes an amendment, passed by unanimous consent on Oct. 1, that would let the secretary of homeland security decide what documents a state would have to require before issuing a driver's license, and would also specify the data that the license would have to include for it to meet federal standards."

So they're not just talking about standardizing information -- they could require new, more specific, potentially more personal/socially intrusive information (blood type, next of kin, religious affiliation, etc, which can all be covered under 'in case of emergencies'). I don't want to have to give that info in order to get on Amtrak or go through an airport, myself.

Not saying it's a bad idea overall. I'm saying that the broad strokes and lack of oversight specifics, especially in this climate (which has changes fro the times you describe, I think we can all agree) make me very, very nervous.

[hildy.livejournal.com]

And yet, I've also seen how hard it is to switch states. My parents had a grand old time getting new Florida licenses when they moved from Virginia.

Even I went through seven hells trying to documentation to suit DMV when I moved for my state id, because they'd changed the standards since 9/11. I could prove my residence fine, but proving my existence beyond a birth certificate was next to impossible. I don't travel extensively, so I don't have a passport. People who were in the US as legal aliens had more options than I did.

[windrose.livejournal.com]

The vast majority of people in this country don't see loss of freedom as something that happens in increments. They think in terms of insurrection, revolution, or invasion, and don't like to remember (or worse, don't know) that Hitler was voluntarily elected. The government says, "We're asking you to sacrifice this one small thing in the name of national security because it will make us safer and protect our freedom," and most people are willing to do it. But that one small thing isn't so small when you add it to all the other small things, and the bigger picture is an America I'm not sure I recognize.

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

An NJ driver's test is harder? I got one, having driven a number of times I can count on two hands, maybe three, and I certainly would never say I knew how to drive. But I'm legally licensed to do so...

[lagilman]

An NJ driver's test is harder?

Reportedly, so, yeah. And not just because of the effing parallel parking, either. Scary, isn't it?

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

It's already the case that you need it for planes and trains. I had to go back to the DMV and upgrade my non-photo license to photo ID because they wouldn't let me get on an Amtrak train without it, and I had to get to Boston. Thank God they stopped me in a state where I had my birth certificate and Social Security card and everything, and not on the other end, y'know? I could quite literally have been stuck in a different state in the case of an emergency, because I didn't have the right ID to be allowed to travel.

[terri-osborne.livejournal.com]

I agree wholeheartedly. I've been studying the 1935-1940 time period in Europe recently. I really don't think the general public realizes the parallels that can be drawn between what happened then and what's happening now. More WWII survivors are leaving us every day, so they can't put up the warning signs. I'm not saying Bush is another Hitler. I am, however, saying that Bush is showing signs of using a lot of the same methods to seize power that Hitler did.

Let's not forget that there are people that insist, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, that the Holocaust never happened. *sigh*

Okay, considering that you ostensibly now have to have a photo ID just to get on an airplane these days (although, I've never seen anyone give mine more than a cursory glance at the airport), I agree with the idea of standardizing driver's licenses and IDs (for those who don't drive) for pretty much all of the reasons given abovethread, but I don't think anything beyond address, date of birth, height, weight, hair color, eye color, perhaps even blood type and next-of-kin (blood type and next-of-kin being voluntarily-given information), should be listed. I find anything beyond that to be a violation of my privacy.

It's not hard to get DL info on people

[karentoe.livejournal.com]

Since I work for an insurance company that insures folks in 17 states, and checks on driver information on potential insureds........ It ain't hard to get info from a state on someone's records. Any state can do a nationwide search to find out if someone has a suspended license somewhere els without going to a whole national standard. It takes a bit more time, but it isn't impossible.

I don't trust anything GW and gang propose. They really aren't interested in fighting terrorism as much as they are staying in office.

[lagilman]

Interesting. I didn't need it to go from NJ to Boston...

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

I had travelled several times in the previous months from the same station to Boston on an expired photo ID. They did ask for my license every time, but they accepted the expired photo one. It is, apparently, the official policy to need valid photo ID, they just don't always fully enforce it. But the signs I saw at NYC Penn were very clear on Amtrak's policy - they reserve the right to ask you for your valid photo ID on the train.

[lagilman]

Was this, perhaps, during the RNC invasion of Manhattan? Everyone was squirrely then (and they've reportedly thrown out most of the
protester arrests made during that period... gee, what a surprise!)

[kefiraahava.livejournal.com]

Datapoint: I flew from JFK to Dulles and back last Friday, and they didn't even look at my driver's license at JFK. I was fumbling around for it in my purse and the screener said "You have ID, right?" and waved me on. However, at Dulles, the screener not only inspected the driver's license and looked me over to see if I corresponded with the photo (even though it's a really BAD photo *wince*), but compared the driver's license name to my boarding pass. Based on that, it might be a better idea to start with standardizing screening procedures before even the ID standardization....

I don't see a legitimate reason either to add categories to the driver's license beyond the address, DOB, height/weight, eye/hair color that are already on there. Past that, I get very nervous as to who wants to know what and why it's any of their damned business. Fingerprints? Retinal prints? That bothers me. Supposedly the new technologies they're using to prevent driver's license fraud should make this not particularly necessary information to put on a driver's license.

OTOH, they do currently finger-image public benefit recipients in NYC--and, IIRC, place said finger images on their electronic benefit cards, specifically to prevent welfare fraud. So don't be surprised if the Powers That Be pull that out for an example of "see, it's for your own good..."

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

No, it was actually just before the DNC in Boston. But that's apparently the officially policy on the whole Northeast Corridor, and has been for some months now...

[janni.livejournal.com]

A voluntary card, like a license - not really having a problem there.

Except I can picture it slowly becoming something that isn't "required," but that you need to do anything you want to do. This has essentially happened with our current drivers' licenses as ID--you need them or an equivalent ID to do all manner of things, even though there's no rule that says you have to have one.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Depends on how you paid for the ticket. I just travelled DC to NYC on Amtrak. My companions paid for their tickets with credit cards and had to show ID. I just put down the cash.

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

I was paying with cash. I was told the only way I could travel without that valid photo ID was using a credit card in the ticket machine, and they heavily implied that was getting around the problem rather than solving it (since they could still ask for ID on the train).

[lagilman]

Cash, in many situations, is a trigger for getting pulled aside and questioned, photo i.d. or no. Paying cash for an airline ticket is a major no-no, specifically. I'm not sure this bothers me, actually. Which bothers me. *wry g*

[redstarrobot.livejournal.com]

It bothers me. Combining suspicion of guilt with the one fraud-free form of payment (and, conversely, presumption of being above-board with the single most fraud-prone, corporate-bloat-prone form of payment) is little better than coercion designed to enrich the problematic (at best) credit industry.

It also bothers me because I don't have a credit card. :)

[kalligraphy.livejournal.com]

Actually it is not that easy to duck things. You are tracked on many levels, although using fake names, fake documents, etc. can do much to get around issues. Five years ago I moved from NJ to Va. I went to transfer my license to Va. They did a check and found out that I had forgotten to pay a non-moving violation ticket in NJ. NJ had put a stop on my license so that it could not be renewed/transfered. Va refused to issue the license until my issue with NJ was resolved. I suspect that if people are ducking things, it is because they do it before the paper work files, or that the state in question did not take steps to make sure it couldn't happen.

I agree that a standard layout of licensing is a good thing. I've worked checking ID and every state places critical information in a different spot. You can end up spending quite a bit of time just searching for the DOB for instance. Standardized requirements are also a good idea, hehehe, I got my DL when I was 16 and a week later moved to NJ. Technically I wasn't legal in NJ, even if I did have a valid license as NJ residents can't get a DL until they are 17. I just have a problem with a national form of ID that increases the amount of info on the card. Especially considering they really can't keep up with making sure your current info is correct. Years ago I moved from one town in NJ to another and put in a change form. They sent me a stick to put on the back with my new address on it. If I had not sent in a request no one would have been any wiser, and anyone can fake a simple sticker. The only thing a picture license is good for is to verify that you are you. Heck, when I travel, I don't show my DL, I show a passport. That doesn't have any address info on it at all, and is still valid picture ID issued by the US government.

[alfreda89.livejournal.com]

We should remember that a lot of the people gathered up as "protesters" were simply walking down the wrong street st the wrong time. They didn't get a phone call, they were placed in horrible warehousing conditions without their meds, no one knew where they were, they weren't charged....

Like that new outsourcing torture law they tried to pull (and may still be trying to pull.) Torture doesn't work as torture--it works as revenge or to intimidate people. who's gonna be intimidated? Al-Queda? The Taliban? No, they'll just torture our people.

US Citizens intimidated? Quite likely.

I find it all quite alarming. Like Suri, I know damn well that it's happened before. In fact, I have the dilemma of, where do I put my references on magic and witchcraft, because I might have RMT clients I don't want seeing them. I sure don't want them to have any other medical info than my blood type on the card.